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Your opinion on SMG / Plasma / Rail Trio

Home FORUMS Robocraft Discussions General Robocraft Chat Your opinion on SMG / Plasma / Rail Trio

This topic contains 17 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by mrpythagoras [Atlas Core] mrpythagoras [Atlas Core] 6 days, 12 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 18 total)
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  • #2141374

    Johnny.M.D
    Participant

    Hello fellow Robocrafters,

    What is your opinion about the “classic” weapon trio? Are they balanced against each other? Are they balanced compared to all other weapons in RC?

    As far as I know, these 3 weapons have been there first. They had a kind of rock-paper-scissor mechanic with pros and cons for each. And they have been introduced in a time when there was only one weapon type per bot.

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    SMGs
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    SMGs are the first (?) weapons that have existed in RC as far as I know. They are / were the most versatile one and they had a good sustained damage. They have been used through all updates of RC.

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    PLASMA
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    Plasmas have a very high burst damage, but a bad sustained damage and have the big con of being vulnerable to aircrafts with other weapons, especially SMGs.

    Right now they have a very high energy consumption and a very bad DPS for common and uncommon ones. I also think that they could need a very small decrease of energy consumption for epic (-5%) and legendary (-10%) plasma, making it possible to fully deplete the weapon energy in one strike. It feels wrong to have leftover energy that you can not fire without waiting one second.

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    RAILS
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    Rails have a very good zoom / scope compared to the other ones. They can fire precise long range shots and disarm enemy bots from afar. They have a very high projectile speed and could counter flyers because of that. If they hit first. They had the big con of being inaccurate when being not completely stationary.

    I don’t know when and how often, but at some point I noticed Flyers with rails. This is a thing that has not been possible when I started playing in 2015. Even on hovers they were very inaccurate. Now I see flying impalers crippling drones and ground bots while being immune to many “natural enemies” like plasma or teslas.

    I think that rails should have a giant aiming nerf when being not stationary. Especially on this small maps.

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    PLASMA vs. HOVER
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    I know that hover blades are hovering below 25m, so they should be in the plasma blast radius. In theory.
    But in practice you have to aim very accurately to actually hit with your shots. And the aiming is a problem because you can hardly estimate the “real” position of the bot above the ground. There seems to be no reliable shadow to help with aiming. And the ground has a very even texture on most maps, especially on the most used pathways.
    I suggest either an increased blast radius for epic or legendary plasma to actually harm hovers easier, OR a damage multiplier for direct hits with plasma. The last one would reward aiming but would counter all other movement types much harder than hovers. With an increased radius it would make hitting hovers a little easier.

    OR with a decreased hovering height to maybe 20m. This would not affect other weapon / movement balance to plasma.

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    CONCLUSION
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    I think that the original weapon trio should be fun to play and viable in all game modes. I am sad to see that rails and plasma are not being played because other weapons seem to be much more effective in current BA. I think that these three “legacy” weapons should always be best at what they were made for (which I do not want to define here) but currently Plasma and especially rails are being underused, except for Impaler.

    When I play a plasma bomber, I have to go for damage boost to be effective. In this case, I am fragile and keep dying to PSK and LOML flyers and have a hard time to always stay in cover from them. These are extremely effective against flyers, which is why I see no flak in league above 2000 MMR.

    What is your opinion?

    #2141376

    Psiweapon
    Participant

    Plasma projectiles are too expensive

    SMG projectiles are too slow

    Rail has too many accuracy penalties

    #2141417

    Hiksday
    Participant

    Smg are fine
    plasma is useless thanks to nano
    railgun is useless thanks to nano

    #2141418

    DARCRY1
    Participant

    NO ONE WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT NANO UNTIL THEY BUFFED THE SCORE. IT SEEMS PEOPLE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HEAL SCORE, AND NOT THE POWER OF HEALS! SO SHUT YOUR HOLE.

    #2141421

    Der_Rote_Baron_1
    Participant

    NO ONE WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT NANO UNTIL THEY BUFFED THE SCORE

    True, however nanos were already OP before the change. we were waiting for a nerf. The fact that they buffed the score made us understand that FJ wasn’t aiming the right way, hence people starting to talk about it here.

    IT SEEMS PEOPLE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HEAL SCORE, AND NOT THE POWER OF HEALS!

    I’m not mad at the score. They can raise it even more as long as they nerf the nano’s power.

    #2141431

    NO ONE WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT NANO UNTIL THEY BUFFED THE SCORE. IT SEEMS PEOPLE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HEAL SCORE, AND NOT THE POWER OF HEALS! SO SHUT YOUR HOLE.

    People started using them less when people starting complaining about them lol. I guess maybe someone might be worried that FreeJam track weapon usage of the players or something.

    Or that the OPness of nano’s isn’t really useful in BA/LA and that the grind makes people play selfishly even if it is a medic position that helps everyone. If it gives good score and helps you win which in turn bumps up your earnings and EXP, you’re gonna see more people use it and more people complain about it.

    My only real problem with nano’s is the binder. NO weapon should ever cost 0 weapon energy to use it. It’s stupid and completely imbalanced, really bad design!

    #2141443
    SteelFlux
    SteelFlux
    Participant

    I think that rails should have a giant aiming nerf when being not stationary. Especially on this small maps.

    Rails actually need this, as opposed to the current “if it’s off the ground it can’t aim” method in place. It means you’re perfectly balanced helicopter’s impaler is useless, even if mounted on the bottom all well and good.

    Basic suggestions being
    > Rail inaccuracy based on movement, not altitude relative to ground
    > Fog on all maps, greater view distance in Rail scope
    > Greater penalties to missing, ie reimplement ammo system

    #2141460

    TheReD40
    Participant

    I think that rails should have a giant aiming nerf when being not stationary. Especially on this small maps.

    This or the inaccuracy while in the air, but nerfing rails isnt suggested as their usage isnt as good as other weapons and they will suffer heavily…

    NO ONE WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT NANO UNTIL THEY BUFFED THE SCORE

    I have said it before and I will say it again… If competitive teams need 3 of them to even try to win, then thats not balance…

    Smg are fine

    Smg is the most used weapon in the game…

    plasma is useless thanks to nano
    railgun is useless thanks to nano

    I wouldnt say rail is useless.. Neither plasma, but they both are bad vs nanos…

    Plasma projectiles are too expensive

    SMG projectiles are too slow

    Rail has too many accuracy penalties

    Yes, agreed about plasma… SMG is the most used weapon, it doesnt need any buff whatsoever and yes, smaller rails have a lot of accuracy penalties…

    FreeJam track weapon usage

    You know, I have been saying this for months now… I saw an opening for data analysis in FJ jobs… Dumb of me to get my hopes up for them tracking weapon usage 🙂

    #2141481

    this weapon madness of introducing niche giant weapons hurts the game a lot, especially with that stupid loadout system

    #2141522

    The SMG/Plasma/Rail/Tesla era was awesome. Especially when each weapon was so uniquely different in terms of reload and firing.
    Before the dark times, before the Empire Max Loadout.

    #2141645

    Johnny.M.D
    Participant

    The SMG/Plasma/Rail/Tesla era was awesome. Especially when each weapon was so uniquely different in terms of reload and firing. Before the dark times, before the Empire Max Loadout.

    I think that each of these weapons should have a “special” place in RC. They should all be effective and worth playing and right now this only applies to SMGs, according to my impression and your replies.

    Most agree that plasma needs a little more love, for example a SMALL reduction of energy usage per shot. And we all agree that we think that plasma below epic rarity are not worth playing because of very bad damage/energy ratio.

    Most agree that railguns are not being very popular, but nanos alone can not be the only / main reason for it. I would say that it is a combination of a reduced viewing distance and maps that clearly favor close quarter combat weapons and playstyle. To me it seems like there is simply no place / space for “normal” rails in the current game. On the other hand I think that the Rail Impaler is too powerful and accurate while moving. It can maybe stay powerful, but ONLY stationary. Noticeable aiming nerfs while moving ON the ground and unusable nerfs while being above it (hover and flyers). This is important because the “old” inacurracy was made to prevent precise long range shots while moving. Right now the maps are so small that the current long range shots equal the old mid range shots and therefor we can almost aim perfectly with rails everywhere on these small distances.

    Tesla blades seem okay to me. Nanos could get their beams back, I never liked the projectile thing, the “feeling” of beams was better in my opinion. I would be okay with energy consumption for all nanos. I would also be okay with old auto aiming IF it would be balanced by for example:

    – drastically increased energy consumption while right-click-auto-aiming
    – drastically reduced heal rate while auto aiming

    Actual and good aiming should ALWAYS be rewarded. But I am okay with someone who prefers sitting in the middle of his team and just holding right click. It should just be not as effective as it was before complete removal. What are your thoughts on this?

    #2141646

    Actual and good aiming should ALWAYS be rewarded. But I am okay with someone who prefers sitting in the middle of his team and just holding right click. It should just be not as effective as it was before complete removal. What are your thoughts on this?

    I agree objectives or actions that require a higher level of skill should be scored higher.

    Nano isn’t a weapon that has a high skill ceiling, in fact it has the lowest skill ceiling of ALL the weapons. It should be scored as such. It has no offence capabilities and as such players hide behind other player providing easy healing and a score that exponentially grows during battle.

    #2141647

    Avestron
    Participant

    Unlike all weapons, nanos compete with auto-heal for scoring purposes. This mechanic robs medics of full-heal bonuses all the time.

    That should be taken into consideration in any rebalance (yes, the score buff was too generous).

    #2141648

    Unlike all weapons, nanos compete with auto-heal for scoring purposes.

    Preventing auto heal from healing players to 100% could remedy that, so maybe auto heal only heals a player back to 70% for example. Nano’s would be the way to get a bot back to full 100% health, so auto heal would be useful but not so effective. Making nano’s more useful and not compete with autoheal.

    Someone else added to that by saying that auto heal could get all your bot parts back but have them come back at 50% health each. That would make autoheal bring you back to be functional but you’d be left weaker. You would need a medic to get you back to full efficiency.

    The original idea was from the upcoming Battlefield 5. They had the same problems with the autoheal feature from previous titles, this made medics less useful. So the fix to that (which i thought was actually really good) was to prevent the autoheal from being so effective, giving more focus and reason for medic on the Battlefield. It’s not my idea at all but as soon as i heard about it i thought, that’s something that’d fit really nice into RC with the nano/autoheal issues.

    On the other hand you could mess around with autoheal timers or remove it completely etc…. but they are not good solutions and don’t really give more use to medic roles. The Battlefield solution is the best I’ve seen so far.

    #2141649

    Hiksday
    Participant

    If you want to achieve a balanced game , removing nano is the fastest way

    Nerfing (or removing) auto heal would make nano mandatory while removing nano would make nearly all weapon usefull .

    Right now free nano can say fuck to 2 railgun , yes free nano NEGATE TWO RAILGUN , same for plasma , once you survive the burst , 1 free nano negate 2 plasma and im talking about free one so while you use your energy for nothing , the enemy regen his energy . It’s beautiful .

    Mender are godly , they can negate 3 railgun (no joke ) nearly 3 plasma and two smg , they can heal at max power for 44 second and even with empty energy they still heal for 90k / s . The whole thing about mender is that they heal for so long that once the enemy have no energy left you can still heal at max power , last time i saw one mender at 1000 cpu negating 3 M-smg at 1600 lol

    If you want to kill someone healed by mender you need to play M-smg , ion or mortar .

    In the end nano say fuck to everything that don’t have damage/energy AND burst high enough making useless nearly all weapons in the game , if you only have burst they will be back to full health before you regen your energy , if you only have sustain you can kill them but it’s going to take way to much time

    If you add the fact that anyone can stick nano we end up with 3/4 weapon useless in high lvl play .

    You think that buffing weapon would solve the issue ? wrong , it make it worse , we would end up with weapon who are balanced against nano and op when enemy team don’t have nano , yeah ….

    If you want to keep nano you need to rework maximum loadout and good luck with that 🙂

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